Perfect!

[randy_byers]

So the latest rumor is that Peter Jackson's production of a two-part adaptation of The Hobbit will be directed by Guillermo del Toro. I know this is the wetdream of many a fanboy, but to me it is the perfect marriage of two hugely over-rated horror-fantasy hacks. No, I'm being over-emphatic; they are both talented film-makers, not hacks. But I really dislike what they do. Really, really. I ended up hating Jackson's LOTR (although I liked the first part), and I hated the crypto-Catholic plot-coupon-fantasyland of Pan's Labyrinth as well. If anybody is going to butcher The Hobbit, it really should be these two guys. I almost look forward to seeing what kind of loud overblown cheesy CGI atrocity they will produce. For those who haven't heard, apparently the second movie will cover the years between the end of The Hobbit and the beginning of LOTR. So awesome! Jackson must be just creaming his jeans at the opportunity to improve Tolkien some more.

In less snide movie news, there's also a rumor that Johnny Depp will step into Heath Ledger's shoes to help Terry Gilliam finish The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus, which was in production when Ledger died. Now *that* is a true artistic match made in heaven and should even make the investors happy. Please may this dream come true!

Comments

[shsilver.livejournal.com]

Well, Depp was supposed to have been in Gilliam's "Don Quixote" and was in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas," so it seems pretty obvious for them to work together again (just as Ledger had been in Gilliam's "The Brothers Grimm."

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

Indeed, if Depp were to step in and save this film from cancellation, it would be a fittingly symbolic ending to the Gilliam Curse, coming full circle from Don Quixote.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

1. Ugh. Sigh. Oy gevalt. Etc. I thought "Pan" was good for what it was, but what it was was nothing like Tolkien.

2. Y'know, I've never seen any of Heath Ledger's movies. I hope this one is better than the Grimm one was supposed to be.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

I didn't care much for The Brothers Grimm when I saw it in the theater, but I have revisited it on DVD and found it a very entertaining (and occasionally creepy) fractured fairy tale. And Heath Ledger is very good in it. I think the only other thing I've seen him in is I'm Not There, where he didn't make much of an impression on me on a single viewing.

[richardthe23rd.livejournal.com]

I actually liked Pan's Labyrinth, just as I was a huge admirer of Cronos and then The Devil's Backbone....his work in other languages, in other words. (Which seems redundant, actually.) That is to say, when he's able to resist the temptation of a big Hollywood paycheck for cranking out some big-budget action sequel, and even then his touches elevate it among run-of-the-mill Hollywood dross to...well, better-than-average dross, I guess. And it did get us Hellboy.

Terry Gilliam was born under a bad sign. If he didn't have bad luck, he wouldn't have any luck at all.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

Well, what can I say? To me Gilliam is a true genius and Del Toro's got nothing but visual flair. However, all I've seen is Hellboy (which I thought was visually striking, but it didn't pull me in -- and actively threw me out when it got to the Lovecraftian monster at the end) and Pan, which I found almost nothing to like about except for the villain. Gilliam's Tideland, about another young girl who enters a perilous realm of fantasy, is so much better and more real and horrifying and enchanting on every level. But that's just me, no doubt. Maybe I just don't like stories of self-sacrifice.

[farmgirl1146.livejournal.com]

My favorite Gilliam work remains Brazil.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's undoubtedly his masterpiece.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

My favorite Gilliam remains "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

"Brazil" is an impressive film in many ways, but the protagonist's behavior makes no sense, and I'm talking about before he goes into his torture-induced hallucination.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

I love Monty Python and the Holy Grail too, but since Terry Jones also gets a credit for direction on that one, it's harder to say it's Gilliam's masterpiece.

[farmgirl1146.livejournal.com]

I found that bazaar aspect of the protagonist's behavior some what compelling since that was how life felt to me. Still does now that I think of it.

[reverendjim.livejournal.com]

I finally got around to Tideland last night. It took me a little while to get into it, and I suspect I'll like it better on a repeat viewing, but I was certainly enjoying it. After all, there's not many films you can say are a cross between Alice's Adventures In Wonderland and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. (Or possibly The Wizard Of Oz and Psycho)
I obviously liked Pan's Labyrinth more than you; I definitely prefer Del Toro's smaller films, starting with the very fine Cronos (and that insect fascination has never left him).
And whereas I still think Jackson's finest is Heavenly Creatures I have absolutely no love for Tolkien so his increasingly arse-numbing LOTR films at least win me over with their comparative (ha!) brevity.
Oh, and keep slagging things off, you do it with an enjoyable style.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

Why, thank you, sir!

And yes, all the influences you saw in Tideland are there, and also a bit of Christina's World by Andrew Wyeth. I think it's a brilliant exploration of Gilliam's obsession with how imagination can help us survive in a cruel world. In Brazil it only provides an internal escape, while the torturers win in reality. In Tideland, the girl actually gets away, although we are left to wonder whether the middle class world she is escaping into will be any less horrific than what she has escaped. Gilliam skates some very uncomfortable territory around childhood innocence and lack thereof in this one, which is one reason I think critics were so savage in their rejection of it. The white trash grotesquery and childhood sexuality also reminded me of Samuel Delany's much more graphic horror-porn novel, Hogg. (Not for the faint of heart!)

Part of my problem with Jackson and del Toro is that I mostly don't like horror movies. But I've heard great things about Heavenly Creatures and would like to see it. The film of Jackson's that I really liked was Forgotten Silver, which is about the forgotten New Zealand film-maker Colin McKenzie who actually invented everything first, including film sound and color. Quite a hoot! In the end, however, I suspect these guys are too much like Spielberg and Lucas for my tastes. They're not intellectual or poetic enough, damn it! (Says the fan of The Fifth Element. Ah, well. I did like the Trantor parts of Send in the Clones, too.)

Oh, and yes, it has been said that Jackson's LOTR is Tolkien for people who don't really like Tolkien, and, you know, it's all good.

[reverendjim.livejournal.com]

And yes, all the influences you saw in Tideland are there, and also a bit of Christina's World by Andrew Wyeth.

Oh, yeah. Not a picture I knew, but obviously one Gilliam does. There was a very blatant Narnia reference too, and very probably other children's books which I don't know. Perhaps the commentary will be enlightening.

I think it's a brilliant exploration of Gilliam's obsession with how imagination can help us survive in a cruel world. In Brazil it only provides an internal escape, while the torturers win in reality.

In reality? Hmm, the physical world, yes (which is what I'm sure you meant, but the word "reality" just nagged slightly). I think it's a happy ending, even if it's only a release for one person. But then if everyone got their own...

In Tideland, the girl actually gets away, although we are left to wonder whether the middle class world she is escaping into will be any less horrific than what she has escaped.

Quite. I thought it was perhaps a more "down" ending than Brazil. In Tideland she's always had a lot of freedom. At first, although having to look after her parents, she's got a rich fantasy life with her doll-heads. Then as she gains physical freedom and a "real" friend the imaginary ones start to take a back seat. It all might be horrific but she deals with it incredibly well. I'm not sure the escape to "middle class world" (The world's dullest theme park?) would give her either the physical freedom or the time for her "fantasy" life. Perhaps.
Hm, that was rambling and un-thought out. By the way, have you seen The Reflecting Skin?

Part of my problem with Jackson and del Toro is that I mostly don't like horror movies. But I've heard great things about Heavenly Creatures and would like to see it.

I'm obviously keener on horror than you then, though I don't really think you can call Heavenly Creatures horror, and Cronos is rather too melancholy to be really in there.

The film of Jackson's that I really liked was Forgotten Silver

Which I don't think has ever had any sort of release over here.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

There was a very blatant Narnia reference too, and very probably other children's books which I don't know. Perhaps the commentary will be enlightening.

The commentary is quite fun. Don't remember exactly how much reference-copping they do, but there's a funny moment when the camera is showing stuffed animals on the wall and Gilliam says, "No Hitchcock influence here, nosirree. I've actually never seen Psycho, oh no. Why do you ask?" Or something like that.

In reality? Hmm, the physical world, yes (which is what I'm sure you meant, but the word "reality" just nagged slightly).

Well, let's just say that the torturers will keep on torturing, whether that's a win for anyone or not. But I do agree that one comes away from Brazil feeling strangely cheered -- perhaps not least because of that damned song.

I'm not sure the escape to "middle class world" (The world's dullest theme park?) would give her either the physical freedom or the time for her "fantasy" life.

Well, I think we're encouraged to wonder about that. On the other hand, the very final shot seems to say that she will still be armed with her imagination even there. A wonderful final shot, where the cinders look like fireflies, in her eyes. She seems to be ready for anything.

By the way, have you seen The Reflecting Skin?

Nope. Not sure I've even heard of it. Hm, I like the initial tags on IMDb: "exploding frog / surrealism / child molestation / rural / child in peril." All this and Viggo too. Sounds promising!

[voidampersand.livejournal.com]

This is reminding me of a very fine rant rich brown wrote. If I recall correctly, the killer line was "Peter Jackson is an orc." So true.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, I'm pretty sure Tolkien said that he and his fellow soldiers were orcs in WWI.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

I don't recall this.

Tolkien did say that humans could behave in an orc-like fashion (this becomes a theme in his unfinished story "The New Shadow"), but just to make clear, he thought this was A Bad Thing, not a necessary condition of making a film of his work.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

I can't find a citation of where he wrote or said it, but several places on the intertubes quote him as having said, "we were all orcs in the Great War." I'll try to remember to check in Shippey when I get home to see if he has anything more specific.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe he did, though I can't find it in his Letters. All the citations there to humans as Orcs make clear that it's a condition humans can be or can fall into, not a necessary condition of humanity.

I don't know why you brought this up in response to the citation of rich brown saying "Jackson is an orc," but if the implication was one of "*shrug* humans are orcs anyway," that certainly wasn't Tolkien's intent, even less so outside of a context of war.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

No, I'm just not real interested in demonizing Jackson is all.

[richardthe23rd.livejournal.com]

Then you'd be mentioning how the set-up for his King Kong takes as long as the original movie did to finish.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

I was so traumatized by his LOTR that I stayed far away from his KK (the original of which is one of my favorite adventure movies). But see elsewhere in this thread for how I really liked his Forgotten Silver.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

I wrote a rant of my own citing Bilbo's line, "It smells like elves." Tolkien smells of elves, I wrote; but Jackson reeks of orcs.

This has gotten me as far as physically threatened by Jackson fans.

[wrdnrd]

Oh, whew! I'm not entirely alone: off the top of my head i cannot think of any other person who thought Jackson's "Fellowship" was not all that bad, and that things went downhill (quite abruptly) after that. After seeing "Fellowship" in the theater i thought, "Oh, well, that was actually pretty good. He may pull this off yet." And then "Two Towers" proved me to be an over-optimistic fool. By time i saw "Return of the King" i just wanted the whole thing to be over. Somehow we managed to buy all 3 extended editions on DVD, but mostly i enjoy watching the extras about the making of the movies; the only movie i'd ever watch again is "Fellowship."

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

I saw "Fellowship" four or five times in the theater, I liked it that much. In that case, I thought the changes made to the story were pretty smart (cutting Bombadil, giving Glorfindel's role to Arwen), although I had misgivings about how the Moria sequence became a D&D adventure on tottering staircases that made no sense. After that, it was pretty much straight off the rails into idiot plotting and war-movie cliches. I still think the scene with Denethor grotesquely chewing tomatos while Pippin sings a Celtic new age song over slo-mo shots of Faramir riding to his dooooooooom is one of the great lowlights of modern cinema.

Oh, and I've seen all the extended versions, too.

[ron-drummond.livejournal.com]

Damn you're good at putting down movies you don't like! So delightfully snide! I haven't had this much fun in hours.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

If only Pippin had sung "Ride of the Valkyries" or "We Are the Champions," all would have been forgiven.

[liveavatar.livejournal.com]

*snort* Now I can't stop thinking of Merry and Pippin as Wayne & Garth. Or of all the hobbits in a car hairflipping to "Bohemian Rhapsody."

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

For the win!

[wrdnrd]

To the Mirthmobile!

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

The cuts were not the problem in the Fellowship film. Or in the sequels, either. The problem was the stuff they put in, of which the extra added confusing falling bridge in Moria was only one tiny example.

[wrdnrd]

I liked Moria when they 1st entered it -- showing that the Dwarves had created a society and architecture nearly equal (in my opinion) in awe and splendor to the Elves. I felt uncomfortable, tho', when they got to running across the stairs -- i haven't been able to explain why i disliked it, and your reasoning seems to be in the right direction.

I was also disappointed by Lothlorien. Of all the scenes from "Fellowhsip", the farewell scene as they went down the river struck me as "Oh, THAT's clearly shot on Earth." The rest of the movie was sufficiently fantastical that it didn't *feel* like New Zealand.

Jackson's treatment of Denethor is really ... depressing.

[randy-byers.livejournal.com]

Well, it's relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, but the problem I had with that collapsing stair sequence is that it only existed in order to ratchet up dramatic tension. The stairs made absolutely no sense as a functional thing, and nothing that happens in that sequence makes any difference to the story. It's a completely gratuitous plot device. As though Gandalf's death isn't enough drama!

Lothlorien was actually okay by me, except for the reliance on CGI to show Galadriel's temptation. That was perhaps the major false note that in retrospect was an indicator of where everything was to go wrong in the later movies. A sledgehammer where some subtle acting would have done. (And Blanchett is more than capable of it, too. What a great actress!)