The Bechdel Test
Jul. 23rd, 2008 12:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
A couple of recent posts on feminist blogs alerted me to something that one of them was calling the Bechdel Test, although there seems to be some disagreement on the name of the thing. It comes from a comic strip called "The Rule" from Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For. As stated in the strip, the rule/test is a movie that:
1) has at least two women in it
2) who talk to each other
3) about something other than men.
This is a pretty interesting way to look at movies. In the strip, one of the jokes is that Alien qualifies, because "the two women in it talk to each other about the monster." A movie that doesn't qualify is Hellboy 2, which Denys and I saw last night. Thinking about other movies I've seen recently, Tell No One qualifies, but what about Shall We Dance? I'm not sure that Ginger Rogers ever talks to the other women in the movie, let alone about something other than Fred Astaire. The Fall would qualify, as long as you count the conversations the little girl has with the nurse or with her mother.
One thing that this test gets at is a way of pointing at "dick flicks" (as opposed to "chick flicks"). A lot of action or adventure films, like Hellboy 2, do not satisfy the conditions, and they might be thought of as movies aimed at boys. As someone in one of the other threads pointed out, the LOTR movies don't cut it, because the women (e.g., Arwen, Galadriel, and Eowyn) don't talk to other women. Movies like Iron Man (and like Hellboy) pretty much only have one woman in them to begin with. Then again, Shall We Dance is hardly what I would think of as a dick flick.
It's also interesting to try to figure out if there are movies that satisfy the rule but aren't particularly woman-oriented. I suppose The Fall would be an example. Also the 1939 Wizard of Oz, where Dorothy's conversations with the Good and Bad Witches (and with her aunt, and between the aunt and Miss Gulch) would seem to qualify. Of course, these are both fantasy films with girl protagonists, so maybe they really are woman-oriented. I haven't yet come up with a good example of a dick flick that satisfies the Bechdel Test. Well, maybe Alien, as she pointed out herself.
1) has at least two women in it
2) who talk to each other
3) about something other than men.
This is a pretty interesting way to look at movies. In the strip, one of the jokes is that Alien qualifies, because "the two women in it talk to each other about the monster." A movie that doesn't qualify is Hellboy 2, which Denys and I saw last night. Thinking about other movies I've seen recently, Tell No One qualifies, but what about Shall We Dance? I'm not sure that Ginger Rogers ever talks to the other women in the movie, let alone about something other than Fred Astaire. The Fall would qualify, as long as you count the conversations the little girl has with the nurse or with her mother.
One thing that this test gets at is a way of pointing at "dick flicks" (as opposed to "chick flicks"). A lot of action or adventure films, like Hellboy 2, do not satisfy the conditions, and they might be thought of as movies aimed at boys. As someone in one of the other threads pointed out, the LOTR movies don't cut it, because the women (e.g., Arwen, Galadriel, and Eowyn) don't talk to other women. Movies like Iron Man (and like Hellboy) pretty much only have one woman in them to begin with. Then again, Shall We Dance is hardly what I would think of as a dick flick.
It's also interesting to try to figure out if there are movies that satisfy the rule but aren't particularly woman-oriented. I suppose The Fall would be an example. Also the 1939 Wizard of Oz, where Dorothy's conversations with the Good and Bad Witches (and with her aunt, and between the aunt and Miss Gulch) would seem to qualify. Of course, these are both fantasy films with girl protagonists, so maybe they really are woman-oriented. I haven't yet come up with a good example of a dick flick that satisfies the Bechdel Test. Well, maybe Alien, as she pointed out herself.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-23 10:15 pm (UTC)Of course, "Kung Fu Hustle" is about 50% Hollywood and 50% Hong Kong, and i have a theory (which caused Mary Kay Kare to crack up) about Hong Kong martial arts movies possibly being more progressive than Hollywood movies about portraying strong women. I should probably formalize that theory and publish it in a zine some day.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-23 10:37 pm (UTC)Some of the wuxia films may confuse the Bechdel Test by putting the women into male disguise, or in the case of Swordsman 2, by having the woman turn into a man (while still being played by a woman).
Another thought about the LOTR movies is that they actually give Arwen more appearances in the story than the books without making her any more important *to* the story. (Does that qualify as a distinction without a difference?) All of a sudden I wonder what she and Eowyn would have said to each other had they talked. No doubt they would have had a catfight over Aragorn, yes, that's it.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-23 11:22 pm (UTC)Oddly thinking of Teeth the vagina dentata nmovie, if ever there was a grrl film that's it but I don't think it passes the test. can't remember any other women in it!
have you got the verdamt Corflu date settled yet?!
no subject
Date: 2008-07-23 11:34 pm (UTC)I was thinking about Aliens earlier and wondering if it passed the Bechdel test. Again, it certainly would if you count Ripley's interactions with the little girl. Not sure if she ever talks to the butch Marine woman. Trying to think what other women there are in the movie.
Also, a one-woman play wouldn't pass the Bechdel test!
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Date: 2008-07-24 08:15 am (UTC)Hey, The Devil Wears Prada passes. In spades.
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Date: 2008-07-24 02:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 05:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 05:31 pm (UTC)Certainly there is a long tradition of strong women in the wuxia genre, although it's still within a basically patriarchal system.
Well, show me any Hollywood movie that isn't set in a patriarchal system. No, seriously, show me one. 'Cause last i checked, i was still living in a patriarchal system, and Hollywood isn't any paragon of progressiveness.
So, yeah, i agree that Hong Kong cinema isn't *terribly* progressive, but i'll still take strong women in a patriarchy over ... whatever the hell that shit is coming out of Hollywood.
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Date: 2008-07-24 05:54 pm (UTC)Just to make it clear: I love wuxia, and I love the strong women in it. I could watch Cheng Pei Pei in Come Drink with Me all day long.
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Date: 2008-07-24 02:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 03:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 02:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 03:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 04:46 am (UTC)You watch many more movies than I do, what's your take on this?
no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 03:08 pm (UTC)One of the threads on the feminist blogs talked about how Samuel R. Delany had some similar rules for how to create well-rounded female characters. The one I remember is that they should be shown to act intentionally, habitually, and gratuitously -- all three. I think there was one about how they should all be shown to have at least one female friend, too. These were again as much comments on what is lacking in typical portrayals and a way to think about them than a true prescription, I think.
How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-24 07:03 am (UTC)3a)...or being mother and daughter.
Citizen Kane does not qualify. (Three major characters are women, but they never talk to each other.)
Re: How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-24 03:01 pm (UTC)Re: How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-24 03:13 pm (UTC)So it isn't about elimination as such. It's about the limited palette of topics.
Re: How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-24 03:42 pm (UTC)Re: How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-24 05:27 pm (UTC)Re: How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-24 05:56 pm (UTC)Re: How to tighten it up even further
Date: 2008-07-26 08:54 am (UTC)I did say that I found the "dick flick" vs. "chick flick" dichotomy amusing in this context, as I never picture either genre as ever passing the test (or if one does, it's an exception).